Taped phone conversations between Evan Chandler and David Schwartz on July 8, 1993

The context and the origin of the tapes

In this article we present extracts from three telephone conversations that took place between Jordan Chandler’s father Evan Chandler and the boy’s stepfather David Schwartz on July 8, 1993. The conversations were taped by Schwartz who handed the tape over to Michael Jackson’s private investigator Anthony Pellicano a day later. A few months later the tape was submitted to a Court in a civil lawsuit between Schwartz and Evan Chandler. The full transcript of the conversations can be read here.

(Note: Besides the three conversations between Evan Chandler and David Schwartz there were other conversations on the tape, which are included in the transcript as well. The conversations which have relevance to us can be found on page 4-39, page 136-160 and page 160-243. Some names, such as the name of Evan Chandler’s second wife or the name of his son from his second marriage were changed in the transcript in order to protect their privacy.)

It has to be emphasized that these conversations took place before Jordan allegedly “confessed” to his father about the alleged abuse [for details about how Jordan allegedly “confessed” see the chapter entitled How Did The Allegations of the Chandlers Emerge?] and they took place while Jordan himself denied any wrongdoing by Jackson. This is very important to keep in mind throughout reading the conversation.

Perhaps it is also worth noting that according to journalist Diane Dimond (whom Ray Chandler’s book, All That Glitters describes as Evan Chandler’s “closest ally” in the media [1; page 194]) reported after Evan’s death in 2009 that Evan suffered from bipolar disorder.

In the conversation Evan Chandler does not explicitly accuse Jackson of molestation, in fact he indicates that he has been advised by his lawyer to be careful with what he says and what he reveals to other people about his “plan”, but he does insinuate an “intimate relationship” between the singer and his son – again, this before his son allegedly confessed to him.

Below we are going to examine and address extracts from this conversation, and also put them into the context of the Chandlers’ – especially Evan Chandler’s – other actions.

The conversations

(Emphasis added.)

Part 1

CHANDLER: Let me put it to you this way: I have a set routine of words that I’m going to go in there that have been rehearsed and I’m going to say.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah

CHANDLER: Okay? Because I don’t want to say anything that could be used against me.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: So I know exactly what I can say. That’s why I’m bringing the tape recorder.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: I have some things on paper to show a few people –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — and that’s it. My whole part is going to take two or three minutes, and I’m going to turn around [tape irregularity], and that’s it. There’s not going to be anything said, other than what I’ve been told to say –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — and I’m going to turn around and leave, and they’re going to have a decision to make.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: And based on that decision, I’ll decide whether or not we’re going to talk again or whether it’s going to go further.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: I have to make a phone call. As soon as I leave the house, I get on the telephone.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: I make a phone call.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Say “Go” or I say, “Don’t go yet,” and that’s –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — the way it’s gonna to be.  I’ve been told what to do, and I have to do it. I’m not — I happen to know what’s going to be going on, see? They don’t have to say anything to me. [Tape irregularity] “you have refused to listen to me. Now you’re going to have to listen to me. This is my position. Give it a thought.”

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: “Think it over.” I’m not saying anything bad about anybody, okay? I’ve got it all on paper.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: I’m going to hand out the paper so that I don’t inadvertently [tape irregularity], handing out the paper, “Michael, here’s your paper. June, here’s your paper.”

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: “Compare papers. Read this whole thing. This is my feelings about it. Do you want to talk further? We’ll talk again.”

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: “If you don’t” [tape irregularity] — but, see, all I’m trying to do now, they have forced me to go [tape irregularity] on paper and give it to them to read –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — because [tape irregularity]. I mean, isn’t that pitiful? Now, why would they want to cut me out, to go this far, spend this much money, spend so much time in my life crying, being away from my practice, not paying [tape irregularity] everybody else? Why would they want to put me through that? And I made it very clear to June that she was putting me through that because I didn’t want any misunderstandings. I’ve done everything I could to appeal to her. (Inaudible) is cold and heart- — absolutely cold and heartless. That’s all –

In the above extract Evan talks about the meeting he demanded to have with Jordan, Jordan’s mother June and Michael Jackson on July 9, that was mentioned at the end of the previous chapter.

The meeting that Evan wanted on July 9 did not take place, but later, on August 4, another meeting did with Evan, Jordan, Michael Jackson and Jackson’s private investigator Anthony Pellicano present. The details of that meeting will be discussed in the chapter entitled The Chandlers’ Monetary Demands.

The choreography of that August 4 meeting went very similarly to what Evan planned for the July 9 meeting: instead of talking in his own words he relied on paper to avoid saying “anything that could be used against me”. As we will see later in this chapter Evan was advised by a lawyer how to carry out his moves – already before his son allegedly “confessed” to him about the alleged abuse.

CHANDLER: […] By the way, they’re going on tour on August 15th. They’re going to be gone. They’re going to be out of the country –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — for four months.

SCHWARTZ: Is that bad?

CHANDLER: Well, I’m not going to be able to communicate with them about this when they’re gone, am I?

SCHWARTZ: I mean, but you think that –

CHANDLER: By the way, they’re not going.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: They don’t know that yet, but they are not going.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: So, I mean, especially if they don’t show up tomorrow, they’re definitely not going. They’ll be lucky if Michael even –

SCHWARTZ: Let me ask you — let me ask you this –

CHANDLER: — tour (inaudible) get canceled.

Jackson was scheduled to begin the 1993 leg of his Dangerous World Tour in August. He invited June, Jordan and Jordan’s sister to join him on the tour, like he often did with many people over the years. This did not sit well with Evan and, according to Ray Chandler’s book, he tried to talk both his son and his ex-wife out of it but they wanted to go nevertheless. Evan here declares “they don’t know that yet, but they are not going” and even indicates that Jackson might be forced to cancel his tour. This is before Jordan allegedly “confessed” to Evan about the alleged abuse.

CHANDLER: I’ve already told you I have — I’m not allowed to say anything more –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — than I’ve already prepared. It’s on paper.

SCHWARTZ: Is it your –

CHANDLER: I’m not going in to –

SCHWARTZ: Is it because of your attorney?

CHANDLER: What?

SCHWARTZ: Because of your attorney?

CHANDLER: Yeah.

This again supports that Evan was coached by a lawyer about what to do and how to do it. This lawyer, as we know by now, was Barry K. Rothman. Evan had more to tell about his lawyer in the conversation:

CHANDLER: He’s willing to meet with them. Right now he’d like to kill them all. I picked the nastiest mother-fucker I could find.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: The only reason that I’m meeting with them tomorrow is, the real fact of the matter is –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — because of Monique. [A pseudonym used for Evan’s then-wife in the transcript.]

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Monique begged me to do it.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

MR. CHANDLER: She said, “You’re out of control” –

[…]

CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) I’m only going there because of Monique, because, to tell you the truth, Dave, it would be a lot easier for me and a lot more satisfying –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — to see everybody get destroyed –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — like they’ve destroyed me, but it would be a lot easier. And Monique just kept telling me, “You don’t want to really do this,” and she finally [tape irregularity] for the sake of everything that we’ve all had in the past –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — to give it one more try, and that’s the only reason, because this attorney I found — I mean, I interviewed several, and I picked the nastiest son of a bitch –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — I could find, and all he wants to do is get this out in the public as fast as he can, as big as he can –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: – and humiliate as many people as he can, and he’s got a bad [tape irregularity] –

SCHWARTZ: Do you think that’s good?

CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) he’s costing me a lot of money.

SCHWARTZ: Do you think that’s good?

CHANDLER: I think that’s great. I think it’s terrific. The best. Because when somebody — when somebody tells you that they don’t want to talk to you –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — you have to talk to them –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — you have to get their attention. It’s a matter of life and death. That’s how I’m taking it. I have to talk to them.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: This is life and death for my son. I have to get their attention. If I don’t get it, if I haven’t gotten it on the phone and I don’t get it tomorrow –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — this guy will certainly get it. That’s the next step. And you want to know something? I even have somebody after him if he doesn’t [tape irregularity]. But I don’t want [tape malfunctioned]. I’m not kidding. I mean what I told you before.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: It’s true. I mean, it could be a massacre if I don’t get what I want. But I do believe this person will get what he wants.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: So he would just really love [tape irregularity] nothing better than to have this go forward. He is nasty, he is mean –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: – he is very smart [tape irregularity], and he’s hungry for the publicity [tape irregularity] better for him.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: And that’s where it’ll go –

SCHWARTZ: You don’t think everyone loses?

CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) totally humiliate him in every way –

SCHWARTZ: That — everyone doesn’t lose in that?

CHANDLER: That’s not the issue. See, the issue is that if I have to go that far –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — I can’t stop and think “Who wins and who loses?”

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: All I can think about is I only have one goal, and the goal is to get their attention –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — so that [tape irregularity] concerns are, and as long as they don’t want to talk to me, I can’t tell them what my concerns are, so I have to go step by step, each time escalating the attention-getting mechanism, and that’s all I regard him as, as an attention-getting mechanism. Unfortunately, after that, it’s totally out of [tape irregularity]. It’ll take on so much momentum of its own that it’s going to be out of all our control. It’s going to be monumentally huge, and I’m not going to have any way to stop it. No one else is either at that point. I mean, once I make that phone call, this guy’s just going to destroy everybody in site in any devious, nasty, cruel way that he can do it. And I’ve given him full authority to do that. To go beyond tomorrow, that would mean I have done every possible thing in my individual power to tell them to sit down and talk to me; and if they still [tape irregularity], I got to escalate the attention-getting mechanism. He’s the next one. I can’t go to somebody nice [tape  irregularity]. It doesn’t work with them. I already found that out. Get some niceness and just go fuck yourself.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Basically, what they have to know, ultimately, is that their lives are over, if they don’t sit down. One way or the other, it’ll either go to the next step or the [tape irregularity]. I’m not stopping until I get their attention. Do I [tape irregularity] the only goal is right now I have to do what I think is best for Jordy –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — and I think what’s going on now is bad for Jordy, and therefore any alternative is better. If I’m wrong, they should sit down, and they should tell me why I’m wrong.

Even though Jordan Chandler himself at this point was adamant that Jackson never did anything inappropriate to him, here Evan Chandler rants about having picked a lawyer who was “the nastiest son of a bitch”, who wanted to “destroy everybody in sight in any devious, nasty, cruel way that he can do it”, who wanted to “humiliate as many people as he can” and who was “hungry for the publicity”. This latter remark, by the way, goes against the Chandlers’ claim that they refused to testify against Jackson in a criminal court because they were wary of the publicity that would have been unavoidable in a high profile case such as this. In fact, Evan Chandler deliberately picked a lawyer who was “hungry for the publicity” [More about this claim by the Chandlers in later chapters.]

But was not Evan Chandler just a desperate father who wanted to communicate a legitimate concern to his ex-wife and Jackson, but was not heard, so he had to resort to desperate measures?

According to Ray Chandler’s book All That Glitters at this point Evan had already communicated his “concerns” to Jackson, his ex-wife June and his son Jordan as he had the fixed, preconcieved idea that the relationship between his son and Jackson was sexual, however, his son rejected this idea, as well as Jackson. As for what Evan based those concerns on, we discussed that in our previous chapter entitled Evan Chandler’s “Suspicions”. In that chapter you can see that there are many circumstances which make the self-portrayal of Evan as a concerned father dubious at best.

To put Evan’s alleged concerns further into a perspective please also read the chapters entitled: Michael Jackson’s first accuser – meet the Chandler family!, The Chandlers’ Monetary Demands and Evan Chandler’s 1996 lawsuit against Michael Jackson.

Additionally having concerns alone would not explain elaborate plans to destroy and humiliate people (and notice the plural – apparently Evan does not only talk about Jackson) in “any devious, nasty, cruel way” while the son himself denies any wrongdoing by Jackson.

Rather than a concern for his son, it seems to be more about Evan’s hurt ego as reflected on when he says: “I’m only going there because of Monique, because, to tell you the truth, Dave, it would be a lot easier for me and a lot more satisfying to see everybody get destroyed like they’ve destroyed me, but it would be a lot easier.”

Later in the conversation you will see that Evan does not resent only Jackson, but also June and even Jordan for what they have – in Evan’s mind at least – done to him.

Part 2

CHANDLER: That’s silly. No. Michael has to be there. Michael has to be there. He’s the main one. He’s the one I want.

SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think he’s a bad guy?

CHANDLER: Michael?

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: He’s an evil guy. He’s worse than bad.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And why do you believe that?

CHANDLER: Huh?

SCHWARTZ: Why do you believe that?

CHANDLER: I have the evidence to prove it.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: You’ll believe it, too, when you hear –

SCHWARTZ: Wait. Let me ask you something. I mean, you trust me, right?

CHANDLER: Let me put it to you this way, Dave. Nobody in this world was allowed to come between this family of June, me and Jordy. That was the hard [tape irregularity] be the opposite. That’s evil. That’s one reason why he’s evil. I spoke to him about it, Dave. I even told him that [tape irregularity] the family.

SCHWARTZ: When did you talk to him?

CHANDLER: About that?

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Months ago. When I first met him I told him that.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: That’s the law. That’s the first thing he knew. Nobody’s allowed to do that. Now there’s no family anymore.

Evan accuses Michael Jackson of coming between “this family of June, me and Jordy”. However, according to June Chandler’s 2005 testimony at Michael Jackson’s trial, Evan neglected his son before Jackson came into their life, and Evan neglected his other two children after the allegations, who were raised by another man. You can read more about Evan’s relationship with his family in the chapter entitled Michael Jackson’s first accuser – meet the Chandler family!. We will address Evan’s claim of having evidence later in this article.

CHANDLER: I don’t know where it’ll go, but I’m saying is that when people – when you — when people cut off communication totally, you only have two choices: To forget about them, or you get frustrated by their action. I can’t forget about them. I love them. That’s it. I don’t like them. I still love Jordy, but I do not like them because I do not like the people that they’ve become, but I do love them, and because I love them I don’t want to see them [tape irregularity]. That’s why I was willing to talk. I have nothing to gain by talking. If I go through with this, I win big time. There’s no way that I lose. I’ve checked that out inside out.

SCHWARTZ: But when you say “winning,” what are you talking about, “winning”?

CHANDLER: I will get everything I want, and they will be totally — they will be destroyed forever. They will be destroyed. June is gonna lose Jordy. She will have no right to ever see him again.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: That’s a fact, Dave. That’s what –

SCHWARTZ: Does that help –

CHANDLER: — Michael the career will be over.

SCHWARTZ: Does that help Jordy?

CHANDLER: Michael’s career will be over.

SCHWARTZ: And does that help Jordy?

CHANDLER: It’s irrelevant to me.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but I mean the bottom line is –

CHANDLER: The bottom line to me is, yes, June is harming him, and Michael is harming him. I can prove that, and I will prove that

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — and if they force me to go to court about it, I will [tape irregularity], and I will be granted custody. She will have no rights whatsoever.

Again, let me remind you that the conversation takes place before Jordan’s alleged confession, and while the boy was adamant that Jackson never molested him. Yet Evan talks about “winning big time” and states that there was “no way that I lose. I’ve checked that out inside out”, that “they will be destroyed forever”, that “June is gonna lose Jordy”, and that “Michael’s career will be over”.

Although Evan claims here – and later in the conversation – that he “can prove that”, in actuality the Chandlers never had any factual evidence against Jackson. In their book Evan himself claims in the chapter entitled “August 4” that he was wary of going to the police because it would have been just Jordan’s word against Jackson’s word [1; page 109]. However, at this point Evan does not even have Jordan’s word to support him.

CHANDLER: This is –

SCHWARTZ: — detrimental to him?

CHANDLER: Extremely harmful to him.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Everybody agrees with that. I mean, they — it’s their opinions that have convinced me to not stay away. You know, I’m not confrontational. I’ve got an [tape irregularity] inclination to do what you do, say, “Okay. Go fuck yourself. Go do what you want to do, and, you know, call me some day. I’ll see you then. I got a [tape irregularity],” but I’ve been so convinced by professional opinions that I have been negligent in not stepping in sooner that now it’s made me insane. Now I actually feel [tape irregularity] –

SCHWARTZ: Oh, I do, and I –

CHANDLER: — [tape irregularity] more important than the money, if the kid’s more important that you are, and they’re more important than I am –

SCHWARTZ: And they are.

 […]

CHANDLER: I never did before, but when her getting her last word is now going to be harmful to Jordy, yes, I am going to step in, and, again, I’m not telling you this is my — my opinion was formed by –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — but this is my perception of [tape irregularity] professional opinions to make sure I wasn’t going off the deep end here.

[…]

CHANDLER: What do I do? I mean, in the opinion of these experts, I would be a negligent father if I did not do what I am now doing.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: In fact, in their opinion I have been negligent not to put a stop to [tape irregularity] opinion. I happen to agree with them now. I didn’t agree with them at first. Michael [tape irregularity] nice [tape irregularity] –

Evan claims that other people convinced him that the relationship between Jackson and Jordan was “extremely harmful”. Who were these alleged “professionals” and “experts”? If we are going by the Chandlers’ own story in All That Glitters at this point they had not contacted any psychologist, psychiatrist or therapist (the first therapist they contacted was Dr. Mathis Abrams on July 14). They do mention that Evan asked people like actress Carrie Fisher and through her a friend of hers who was a security expert, and Jackson’s long-time dermatologist Arnold Klein, but these people are not experts and professionals, at least not in the field of child abuse, nor did they ever talk to Jordan. According to All That Glitters Klein told them that they had nothing to worry about and Fisher’s account in her 2011 autobiography Shockaholic about how this story occured is significantly different to the Chandlers’ account that we can read in All That Glitters. Fisher’s portrayal of Evan is anything but a “concerned father”, on the contrary, as we have seen in the previous chapter.

Alternatively Evan could mean his lawyer Barry Rothman by an “expert”, but again, Rothman was not a child abuse expert and child abuse allegations were not even his main field, other than once previously having represented a woman who during a child support and custody battle accused her ex-husband of sexually molesting their child [2]. Additionally, as we have seen from this conversation earlier, Rothman was “hungry for the publicity” and he would have loved “nothing better than to have this go forward”, so he had his own vested interest in convincing Evan about going forward with what promised to be an extremely high profile case.

SCHWARTZ: So why do you think he’s not nice?

CHANDLER: Why? Because he broke up the family, that’s why.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: And he was put on notice from the first sentence out of my mouth was, “Michael, I think you’re really a great guy. You’re welcome into the family, as long as you are who you seem to be, but don’t take anything [tape irregularity].” I mean, that to me was the worst thing anybody could do to me.

SCHWARTZ: And you think he did it?

CHANDLER: Well, Dave, if he wasn’t in the picture, everything would be as it was. I’m not –

SCHWARTZ: But that’s sort of –

CHANDLER: — saying that he did it premeditatively, and I’m not saying he did it on his own.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: I’m saying that he might have — it might have just evolved that way, and it might have evolved that [tape irregularity] desire, so I’m blaming all three of them, but when I come to that [tape irregularity], it really makes me hate June because the family was inviolate, [tape irregularity] felt about it. There was nothing I had. I mean, you came in this family and made it better. It was great. Someone else comes along and breaks it up. You know how [tape irregularity]. Okay. So do I [tape irregularity] coming into the family who’s going to do good things for the family.

SCHWARTZ: But, I mean –

CHANDLER: Michael divided and conquered, Dave.

SCHWARTZ: He what?

CHANDLER: He divided and conquered.

SCHWARTZ: Well –

CHANDLER: He did, Dave. He did.

SCHWARTZ: Oh –

[…]

CHANDLER: The bottom line is — the bottom line is he took Jordy out of the family with June’s help.

[…]

CHANDLER: — problem with that, then that problem has ultimately ended up bringing the family to this point. But you’re not solely to blame for it. It doesn’t mean that June was still — I didn’t do anything that — they didn’t have the right to take my kid away from me, to break up the family.

Evan’s main problem seems to be that Jackson allegedly ”broke up the family” and it seems to be about Evan’s hurt ego and jealousy of Jackson:“I mean, that to me was the worst thing anybody could do to me.”  He blames ”all three of them” – Jackson, June and Jordan.

Part 3

CHANDLER: Let me put it to you this way, okay? You put all of — you put the three of them on the stand (simultaneous, inaudible) –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — any questions, and they will all be asked questions, and they will all have psychological examinations –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — (simultaneous, inaudible) given lie detector tests.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: I’m going to tell you what. There is no excuse in law for June having done what she does. Despite the fact that you might say it’s your fault –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — whatever you say is going to [tape irregularity] capable of making her own decisions –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — and she made those decisions to the harm of her son, despite the fact that, yeah, maybe she’s insecure, maybe she’s macho on the surface, and maybe you fucked her over.  Maybe you did. Maybe you didn’t.

Evan was fantasizing about putting all three of them on the stand, Jordan included – this before Jordan’s alleged “confession” and while the boy was adamant that Jackson never molested him.

CHANDLER: And I know what you’re saying, and it breaks my heart, but I truly believe my son is being harmed greatly and that his life — he could be fucked up for the rest of his life [tape irregularity].

SCHWARTZ: You gotta tell me why you think he’s being screwed up.

CHANDLER: I have the evidence.

SCHWARTZ: I know, but what – I don’t know what evidence. I don’t know what you’re talking about.

CHANDLER: Well, you’ll see.

SCHWARTZ: But why can’t you tell me? I swear –

CHANDLER: You show up in court and you’ll see it on the big fucking screen –

SCHWARTZ: But what –

CHANDLER: — and then you’ll know what I’m talking about.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: And you’ll hear in on tape recordings.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: You’ll hear it all. You’ll see it all, just like I have.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: It cost me thousands, tens of thousands of dollars –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — to get the information I got, and I — you know I don’t have that kind of money –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — and I spent it, and I’m willing to spend more, and I’m willing –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — to go down financially to –

SCHWARTZ: Do you think that’s going to help Jordy?

CHANDLER: Dave, Jordy’s – I believe that Jordy’s already irreparably harmed.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: That’s my true belief.

SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think that he’s fucking him?

CHANDLER: I don’t know. I have no idea.

SCHWARTZ: But harmed in — in just been spoiled?

CHANDLER: No.

SCHWARTZ: Just tell me –

CHANDLER: You know, you gotta forgive me for one thing, but I have been told by my lawyer that if I say one thing to anybody –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Okay.

CHANDLER: — don’t bother calling him again. He said this case is so open [tape irregularity] “You open your mouth and you blow it,” he said, “just don’t come back to me.”

Here Evan talks about having physical evidence against Jackson that can be shown on a big screen and tape recordings. No such evidence was ever produced during the Chandler investigation.

Like we will discuss in the chapter entitled How Did The Allegations of the Chandlers Emerge?, in Ray Chandler’s book All That Glitters it is claimed that, in order to get a “confession” out of Jordan, Evan lied to him about having bugged his room, but the bluff did not work on the boy. Whether Evan really lied to Jordan about it or he did indeed bug Jordan’s bedroom only what he taped did not produce evidence against Jackson (or maybe even on the contrary) we cannot decide, but the fact is that there has never been any kind of physical or taped evidence that Evan could use against Jackson. In actuality, like mentioned before, in his brother’s book All That Glitters Evan himself says in the chapter entitled “August 4” that he was wary of going to the police because it would have been just Jordan’s word against Jackson’s word [1; page 109], so Evan’s claims in this conversation about having evidence are nothing but a bluff. Evan also claims the evidence and information cost him “thousands, ten thousands of dollars”, but considering the above mentioned facts this seems to be another bluff.

In this part Schwartz directly and quite bluntly asks him whether Evan suspects sexual molestation to which Evan says he has no idea and then proceeds to saying he was told by his lawyer not to say anything to anyone to not“blow it”.

CHANDLER: And let me tell you this, by the way: What harm would it be to you, what harm would it be to your relationship to June, if Michael wasn’t around anymore? You say that you [tape irregularity] your fault. You say that you made her insecure.

SCHWARTZ: Wait.

CHANDLER: So if he wasn’t around anymore –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah?

CHANDLER: — what do you think she’s going to do? She’s going to come back to you. She doesn’t need you anymore. She doesn’t even want you around anymore. She’s told me and she’s told you — I’m sure she’s told you that if [tape irregularity] Michael she’ll get rid of you. She’s told me that. She means it.

SCHWARTZ: Well –

CHANDLER: She means –

SCHWARTZ: The only thing I told you before is I told her I didn’t want him buying her things in Europe. I gave her some money. And then when he did buy her things and she told me, I got pissed off at her. And that’s it, and that’s really the whole thing. That’s all we ever talked about.

CHANDLER: How do you feel about her going off on tour with him? You told me when you were there the other day that everybody’s been calling you saying “Your wife’s been [tape irregularity]” –

SCHWARTZ: It does [tape irregularity] –

CHANDLER: And let me tell you something, by the way. That’s the best thing that could happen to him, is that people think he’s interested in June.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: The fact is, he has no interest in her whatsoever. The fact is he doesn’t even care about her. He doesn’t even like her. He’s [tape irregularity] –

SCHWARTZ: You don’t think he likes her?

CHANDLER: I know he doesn’t. He told me he doesn’t. He can’t stand her. He told me that when –

SCHWARTZ: Huh! He can’t stand her?

CHANDLER: No. He told me that when he was in my house.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Yeah. At that point he liked us better than — Jordy too. Jordy’s the same as Michael. It was a simple divide and conquer. They felt us both out.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: They saw who was going to let them do what they wanted to do, and then they made their choice.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: And until I had a talk with Jordy one day at [tape irregularity] –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — they were gonna come live with me. They were gonna pack up, leave June’s house, and come here.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: That’s what they were going to do, because they were getting more resistance from her than they were getting from me. You cannot tell this stuff — you cannot — I’m confiding in you, okay, Dave?

SCHWARTZ: Okay.

Evan tries to play on Schwartz’s jealousy of Jackson in order to convince him to join forces with him against the singer. Then he proceeds to claim that Jackson cannot stand June and that “Jordy’s the same as Michael. It was a simple divide and conquer. They felt us both out”.

Of course, just because Evan claims this it does not mean it is true – just like his claim of having evidence was not true -, but it shows that in Evan’s mind Jackson and Jordan were some kind of unit who acted together against him and June, and who only cared about which one of them would “let them do what they wanted to do”. Evan also claims they “were gonna come live with me” because “they were getting more resistance from [June] than they were getting from me”. Evan’s claim of Jackson and Jordan getting more resistance from June than from him is contradictory with Evan’s claims elsewhere where he represents June as the enabler of Jackson and himself as the saviour of his son.

CHANDLER: Okay. What I’m telling you is that Jordy and Michael are users.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: They had — they were gonna — they had their own relationship.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: They want to carry it out the way they want to carry it out. They don’t want anybody getting in the way [tape irregularity] — least resistance, and that’s the way they’re going. They simply divided and conquered, and June went along with it. And she was wrong because she did it to the detriment of Jordy.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Jordy is not old enough to make these kind of [tape irregularity] that he’s making.

SCHWARTZ: But is that a huge life decision?

CHANDLER: Oh, you bet it is.

Here it becomes clear that Evan talks about the supposed relationship between Jordan and Jackson as a consensual one. He calls both of them ”users” who “don’t want anybody getting in the way”. Also he talks about this supposed “relationship” as a fact, when Jordan himself at this point denied any wrongdoing by Jackson and he only started to make allegations against the singer after his father took control over him.

About how and why an educated adult would consider supposed child molestation a consensual romance you can read more in a later chapter entitled Victor Gutierrez and his role in the allegations against Michael Jackson. In that chapter we will also discuss the possible connection between Gutierrez and Evan Chandler.

While just a couple of sentences ago Evan said that Jackson and Jordan got more resistance from June than from him, here June is again the enabler who “went along with it”.

SCHWARTZ: Do you think Jordy hates you?

CHANDLER: If he doesn’t, he’s gonna hate me tomorrow.

SCHWARTZ: But why do you –

CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) to –

SCHWARTZ: Do you want that?

CHANDLER: It doesn’t matter what I want.

SCHWARTZ: But why would you want him to hate you, and why would you want to put him through that –

CHANDLER: Because all I care about is what happens to him in the long run.

SCHWARTZ: Well, the long run, is that going to be healthy in the long run?

CHANDLER: According to the experts?

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Absolutely. According to the experts, if it goes on the way it is, he’s doomed. He has no chance of ever being a happy, healthy, normal human being, no [tape irregularity].

SCHWARTZ: So what happens if you force him not to see him?

CHANDLER: Not to see Michael?

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Nobody’s saying for sure what will happen. Most people’s feeling is that he’s gonna go on and hate me for a long time and then some day when he gets older he’ll thank me.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And why do you think he hates you now?

CHANDLER: I said I think he’ll — I said he may or may not hate me now –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — but he’ll definitely hate me tomorrow. He’ll hate me, why? Because I’m taking Michael away from him. That’s why.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: And that’s a –

SCHWARTZ: So you really think Michael’s bad for him?

CHANDLER: I know Michael’s bad for him.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: You know how I know that? Why would somebody, Dave — if you tell me this, think of this logically. What reason would he want us split up — [tape irregularity] would he want me out of the way? What would be the reason, unless he has something to hide?

SCHWARTZ: But –

CHANDLER: I know what he has to hide. I happen to know what it is.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: But I can’t tell you.

SCHWARTZ: Okay.

CHANDLER: I’m just asking you in terms of logic. You know me. I’m not — I’m a pretty liberal guy.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: I don’t get in anybody’s way, okay? So, I mean, what reason would he want me out of the way to such an extent that neither one of them will take my phone calls, neither one of them will talk to me?

Evan claims Jackson wants him “out of the way” and he assumes the star has ulterior motives for that. In the previously quoted part of the conversation Evan claims that Jackson and Jordan “don’t want anybody getting in the way” and now he says “I don’t get in anybody’s way, okay?”and that he is “a pretty liberal guy”. Considering what Evan assumes about the relationship between Jackson and Jordan and how he blames June for enabling Jackson and portrays himself as a concerned father, this is remarkable.

CHANDLER: […] My approach to the whole thing is that the one person — the person who doesn’t talk is the one who’s wrong, period –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — no matter what the action was, I believe everything is preventable, every bad action that anybody takes is – unless you’re truly pathologic –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — is probably preventable if you just found somebody who would sit [tape irregularity] you know what? They don’t even have to talk back and give you [tape irregularity] if you get it out, everything will be okay, you know, but that’s my approach. My approach is that the people who don’t talk are the ones who are wrong.

[…]

SCHWARTZ: I just said I am wrong, but here is the other — I mean, the thing is Jordy’s 13 years old. I’m talking about adults. I mean, I don’t know if he — I mean, you’re his dad. You’re his role model.

CHANDLER: No, I’m not his role model.

SCHWARTZ: Yes, you are, definitely –

CHANDLER: Not anymore.

SCHWARTZ: You are, positively, in the long run, you’re his role model.

CHANDLER: There is no – there isn’t gonna be a long run if things went on like this. Don’t you see? As long as I go along with whatever they want to do –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — everything’s okay. As soon as I say you can’t [tape irregularity] anybody –

To be clear: Jackson or Jordan did not indicate to Evan that they have some kind of “romantic” or sexual relationship that Evan or June needs to go along with. On the contrary. According to All That Glitters when Evan asked Jordan about whether their relationship was sexual Jordan answered: “That’s disgusting! I’m not into that.” [1; page 46]

While earlier Evan claimed he had evidence against Jackson, here he bases his suspicions on his belief that “the person who doesn’t talk is the one who’s wrong”.

Evan also complains that he is not Jordan’s role model any more – from the context it seems, because Jackson is instead of him.

CHANDLER: There’s no reason why they would have to cut me out unless they – unless they need me to be away so they can do certain things which I don’t think are good to be doing.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: And I — and not only that, but I don’t even have anything to say about it, okay? [tape irregularity] I think what they’re doing and it isn’t bad, and so maybe I’m wrong –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — but I’m not even getting a chance to express that.

[…]

CHANDLER: I had a good communication with Michael.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: We were friends, you know. I liked him.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: I respected him and everything else for what he is, you know. There was no reason why he had to stop calling me. He could have called me.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: In fact, Dave, I – you ask Jordy. I sat in the room one day, and I talked to Michael and told him exactly what I want out of this whole relationship, what I want [tape irregularity], okay, so he wouldn’t have to figure me out.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: And one of things I said is we always have to be able to talk to each other.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: That’s the rule, okay, because I know that as soon as you stop talking weird things start going on and people [tape irregularity] –

SCHWARTZ: Imaginations take over.

CHANDLER: Imagination will just kill you.

SCHWARTZ: Right.

While earlier Evan claimed he had evidence, here he says maybe he is wrong. He assumes things because he feels cut out and because Jackson stopped calling him and stopped talking to him. In fact, he concedes that because Jackson stopped talking to him “weird things start going on” and “imagination will just kill you”.

CHANDLER: And you want to know what I told her? I told her this. I said June — “Monique,” I said, “if you ever want to sleep with somebody else or if you don’t love me anymore, if you come to me and you tell me that [tape irregularity] out of the house and fuck his brains out, I’ll love you forever, I’ll support you and wish you well. But if it’s the other way around, you fuck him first and then you [tape irregularity], I’ll kill you, period.” I said, “Those are the rules. If you want to stay with me, you gotta understand that’s the only way I can survive. That’s how I live.

Here Evan talks about his then-wife “Monique” and what would happen if she cheated on him. We quote this part to further illuminate Evan’s character and to put the next part into a context.

CHANDLER: And so if I wasn’t able to talk to her, this marriage would have been over a long time ago.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Because [tape irregularity] –

SCHWARTZ: Don’t we learn like that?

CHANDLER: Because of my imagination, Dave.

Here we get back to the topic of Evan’s imagination and this is how it is related to the main subject of the conversation. Evan says if he would not be able to discuss his insecurities, fears and jealousy with his wife (this is discussed in a bit more detail in the full conversation) their marriage “would have been over a long time ago” because Evan would imagine things. Basically Evan admits that when people stop talking to him he has a tendency of imaginaning bad things about those people.

CHANDLER: I know that after tomorrow — in fact, not even after tomorrow. It’s already happened. I don’t ever want anything to do with June anymore because June is not part of my family. In my mind, she’s died. I don’t ever want to talk to her again. [tape irregularity] sitting on the stand being totally humiliated or at the end of a shotgun. That’s the only way I want to see June now. She’s gotta [tape irregularity] do this to kid. Again, it’s not right. Can do it to me. Can’t do it to my kid. It’s not right.

Evan has just admitted that he could be wrong and rather than having facts he imagines things, yet he is very aggressive towards June and wants to see her “sitting on the stand being humiliated or at the end of a shotgun”.

CHANDLER: You want to know something? You don’t even have to ask me. You could — as you said before, you want to sit down and talk to the people I spoke to –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — you’re going to have a chance to do that if you want to. You go and ask the experts –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — and you won’t have to ask. They will be there anyway. There’s not one person in this world [tape irregularity] can’t find a person –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — disagree with me. I’m the one that disagreed with – I didn’t even want to know about it.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: I kept saying, “No, this is okay. There’s nothing wrong. This is great.” It took experts to convince me [tape irregularity] that by not taking action –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — my son was going to be irreparably damaged for the rest of his life [tape irregularity]. That was what I heard.

SCHWARTZ: Because his friend is older, or because of all the seduction?

CHANDLER: Well, you know, age in and of itself is not a harmful thing.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: But it could have been used to advantage, and in some ways Michael is using his age and experience and his money and his power to great advantage to Jordy. The problem is he’s also harming him, greatly harming him, for his own selfish reasons. He’s not the altruistic, kind human being that he appears to be.

SCHWARTZ: Do you think –

CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) selfish motives here.

SCHWARTZ: You mean, harming Jordy because it’s taken him out of reality?

CHANDLER: It’s not so much really what he’s taken him out of. It’s what he’s brought him into.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: I mean, I don’t mean to be devious. I just can’t be –

SCHWARTZ: You can’t tell me.

CHANDLER: — specific about it, but I tell you that, again, it all comes down to one thing. They don’t want to talk to me.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Jordy — yeah, he’s 13 years old. He’s only [tape irregularity], hoping that the problem will go away by itself, but June’s old enough to know better. June’s the one that’s frustrated me.

SCHWARTZ: Well, you know, this is the deal: I talked to Jordy about it today, about, you know, his not contacting you and not calling you on Father’s Day and not sending you anything. He’s confused June — and this is the truth and from him. June did everything to get him to send you a card, to call and everything. He’s just frustrated, you know, and I don’t know about what or — you know, it’s just like he’s scared or doesn’t know what to do or –

CHANDLER: (Inaudible).

SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?

CHANDLER: June didn’t do a thing to have him call me or send me a card by her own admission to me last time. She didn’t give a shit, is what she told me.

SCHWARTZ: Well, but I don’t believe that because, I mean –

CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) told me.

SCHWARTZ: Because, I mean –

CHANDLER: I –

SCHWARTZ: With June and – I talked to them today.

CHANDLER: Well, then, she’s lying to you, Dave.

SCHWARTZ: Well, but would Jordy lie?

CHANDLER: Now they’re scared shit.

SCHWARTZ: No. Would Jordy — no, because they don’t know anything about it. I didn’t even tell them that I had talked to you this morning, okay?

Evan again talks about “experts” convincing him that if he would not take action his son would be “irreparably damaged for the rest of his life”. Earlier in this chapter we have already addressed Evan’s claims about these so called “experts”, as well as the fact that Evan did not have any evidence and apparently he relied on his “imagination” more than anything else.

Evan claims Jackson “is using his age and experience and his money and his power” and later in this conversation we will see Evan use more of these same expressions while describing Jackson. This is significant because Jordan used these same or very similar expressions to describe Jackson in an interview that was conducted with him by psychiatrist Dr. Richard Gardner in October 1993. According to All That Glitters Jordan and Evan never talked about the alleged abuse in detail, yet Jordan’s train of thought, opinions, choice of words in his interview with Dr. Gardner are remarkably similar to those of his father’s in this conversation.  About Jordan’s alleged “confession” you can read more in the next chapter entitled How Did The Allegations of the Chandlers Emerge? For a little more detailed discussion about the similarities between Jordan’s thoughts and expressions in the Gardner interview and those of his father’s in this conversation you will have to read the later chapter entitled The Chandler Allegations.

SCHWARTZ: I mean, you know more than I know, so I’m at a disadvantage.

CHANDLER: Well, then, I will tell you without question. It’s gone way too far.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Jordy is never going to be the same person he was.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: It’s never — by the time it runs its course –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — if it does, he will be so damaged he’ll never recover –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — and that’s not my opinion. I mean, I happen to be believe it now because my eyes have been opened –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — but I’m not the one that first [tape irregularity], so what I’m saying to you is that I’m acting because [tape irregularity] I’m going to cause him great harm, and you tell me if maybe it’s gonna cause him harm right now. I think he’ll be harmed much greater if I do nothing, and besides now I’m convinced that if I do nothing I’m going to be, from doing nothing, causing him harm, and I couldn’t –

Again a reference to outside influences who allegedly formed Evan’s opinion. Evan talks about harm that Jackson allegedly causes while not having any evidence of any wrongdoing and while his son is adamant that nothing inappropriate has happened.

CHANDLER: […] I ask you this: If Michael Jackson were just some 34-year-old person, would this be happening? No. He’s got power, he’s got money, he’s got seduction. [tape irregularity] happening [tape irregularity] they’ve been seduced away from the family by power and by money.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: And by this guy’s image.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: He could be the same person without the power and the money, and they wouldn’t even be talking to him. You know it and I know it. So for power and money and his image, June and Jordy have broken up the family, and even though [tape irregularity] a lot better, because I’ve sat down and talked to him, and I’ve told him long before it came down to going this far –

Evan seems to be jealous of Jackson (in fact in All That Glitters it is admitted that he was jealous of the friendship between Jackson and his son) and he accuses both his ex-wife and his son of “breaking up the family” for Jackson’s money, image and power.

CHANDLER: — but if [tape irregularity] now, June wouldn’t be in the picture and neither would Kelly, any more than I am.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: They would have dumped her a long time ago. They even told me [tape irregularity]. They can’t stand her.

SCHWARTZ: Wait. Jordy can’t stand June?

CHANDLER: Yeah. Neither one of them like her. They don’t like anybody but each other.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: They don’t like you, and they don’t like me and they don’t like her. They don’t want anybody coming between them. [tape irregularity] got to be eliminated. You go ahead and you see — you tell June. You tell June to start saying “No” to everything they want –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — and see what happens. The only reason she’s there is because she says “Yes” [tape irregularity] favorite as long as I was saying “Yes.” Trust me. I don’t know what’s happened to Jordy except he doesn’t care, literally does not care, if he would ever see him again. He hopes I would go away and not bother him. That’s [tape irregularity].

SCHWARTZ: Well, I know that’s not true.

CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) Michael.

SCHWARTZ: I know that’s not true.

CHANDLER: I’m telling you. But that doesn’t matter, you know. I’m not taking it personally. I’m just trying to do what I have been led to believe is the right action to take so that he’s not harmed. I mean, Unfortunately, June and [tape irregularity] because in order to protect Jordy certain things are gonna have to come out, and those two are not going to have any defense against it whatsoever. They’re just going to be [tape irregularity] violently destroyed.

SCHWARTZ: Do you think that it helps Jordy?

CHANDLER: Yeah, it’ll help Jordy because he won’t — he’ll never see Michael again. That’s –

SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think that –

CHANDLER: And he’s probably never gonna see June again if I have to go through with this.

SCHWARTZ: Do you think –

CHANDLER: Unless I’d let him.

SCHWARTZ: Do you think that would affect him?

CHANDLER: What?

SCHWARTZ: That he was — that this was done by force?

CHANDLER: You mean that Michael did this to him?

SCHWARTZ: No, that you, like, are forcing him not to see someone or take him away from his mom?

CHANDLER: Well, I am gonna force him not to see –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but do you think that’s the right way to do it?

CHANDLER: Yeah. I’ve been led to believe that it’s the right thing to do. In fact, it’s the right thing to do because how do you know? You don’t know what –

SCHWARTZ: I don’t have a clue.

CHANDLER: Suppose you were to find out what they’re doing and you were to agree with me that these things that they’re doing are harmful to Jordy or –

SCHWARTZ: I’d like to know.

CHANDLER: — be harmful.

SCHWARTZ: I mean, in my wildest imagination I can’t figure out what it is.

CHANDLER: Okay. But suppose –

SCHWARTZ: Unless it’s sex, and I don’t know, you know.

CHANDLER: Suppose that you were to find out that there were things going on that you believed were harmful to him? Would you say to me, “Hey, look. You know, I got things to do here [tape irregularity], but, you know, time will go by and everything will be okay”? I mean, that’s –

 […]

CHANDLER: Okay. Well, they won’t talk to me about those things. They won’t talk to me about anything.

SCHWARTZ: Even about what you think they’re doing or about what you know they’re doing?

CHANDLER: What I know they’re doing.

Evan makes the accusation that Jordan and Jackson “don’t like anybody but each other”, that “they don’t want anybody coming between them” and he says that he has been “led to believe” that he needs to take action so that the boy does not get harmed. He also says that “those two” (presumably June and Jackson) are going to be “violently destroyed”. He goes on about how Jordan will “never see Michael again”, and “he’s probably never gonna see June again if I have to go through with this”. Remember this is all while Jordan himself is adamant that nothing inappropriate has happened.

Evan also says: “Suppose you were to find out what they’re doing and you were to agree with me that these things that they’re doing are harmful to Jordy” and later claims he does not just think they are doing harmful things but he knows. In actuality, Evan did not have anything but assumptions and “imagination” but this does not stop him from fantasizing about violently destroying both Jackson and June.

Like we said before, the fact that Evan used these allegations as a way to demand money from Jackson instead of trying to put the alleged molester of his son in prison (see more in the chapters The Chandlers’ Monetary Demands and The Settlement), the fact that he did not show much interest in Jordan before Jackson came into his family’s life, nor did he show much interest in his other two children who were not millionaires like Jordan after the allegations (see our chapter Michael Jackson’s first accuser – meet the Chandler family!) and other facts we discuss in this document (eg. in the chapters Evan Chandler’s “Suspicions” and Evan Chandler’s 1996 lawsuit against Michael Jackson) put Evan’s posturing in this conversation as a concerned father into a perspective and pretty much discredit it.

CHANDLER: I mean, I’ve tried to talk to Jordy. Jordy — Jordy does not talk to me. This stopped long before I told him he couldn’t [tape irregularity]. He just does not talk to me anymore. In fact, when he talks to Michael on the telephone, he goes in another room because I’m not allowed to hear what they’re talking about except I taped [tape irregularity] they’re talking about. Ha ha ha. Anyway, all I’m saying is that [tape irregularity] that I would be negligent to continue to do nothing [tape irregularity] gonna be because nobody really knows how Jordy will be affected one way or the other. I know for a fact that he’s going to be affected adversely if I do nothing.

No incriminating tape has ever been produced of Jackson and Jordan’s phone conversations. In actuality, like mentioned before, in his brother’s book All That Glitters Evan himself says in the chapter entitled “August 4” that he was wary of going to the police because the case would have been just Jordan’s word against Jackson’s word [1; page 109]. That means either Evan bluffs here about taping Jordan and Jackson’s phone conversations, or if he indeed did then it did not produce the evidence he hoped for.

Evan claims he knows “for a fact” that Jordan is going to be “affected adversely if I do nothing”. How does he know it for a fact when all he has are assumptions and “imagination”?

SCHWARTZ: Would you do me a big favor?

CHANDLER: What?

SCHWARTZ: Could you and I go to one of these shrinks and talk it over?

CHANDLER: No.

SCHWARTZ: Why not?

CHANDLER: Because it’s too late, after 8:30 tomorrow.

SCHWARTZ: But why not? Why couldn’t we go talk it over –

CHANDLER: Because the thing’s already — the thing has already been set in motion.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: It’s happening at 8:30. 8:36 tomorrow –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — it’s out of my hands. I do nothing else again –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — after 8:36 tomorrow. It’s all been automatically set in motion.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: I’m not even in contact anymore –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — with this person. This thing is –

Evan refuses Schwartz’s offer to go together to a “shrink” claiming that “the thing has already been set in motion” and that “it’s out of my hands”. This makes little sense because Evan pretty much pulled the strings and was in control during the formation of these allegations. What was already unstoppably “set in motion” and why when Evan had no evidence, just his “imagination” and while his son himself was adamant that he had not been molested?

CHANDLER: The evidence is already locked up in a safe place –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — and it’s gonna come out only [tape irregularity] let it come out, and that’s it. If they don’t talk to me tomorrow, out it comes.

SCHWARTZ: Okay. Well, but let me ask you this- –

CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) Michael Jackson — Michael Jackson’s career, Dave. This man is gonna be humiliated beyond belief. You’ll not believe it. He will not believe what’s going to happen to him.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Beyond his worst nightmares. [tape irregularity] not sell one more record.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: That’s for sure. And I mean I’m [tape irregularity] it just has to happen in order to get — to keep [tape irregularity] and it doesn’t have to happen if they show up tomorrow.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: But if they don’t show up — and I’ve made it very clear — I’ve tried to make it really clear on that answering machine, “This is the last chance to talk. If you talk, we have a chance. If we don’t talk, it’s all over.” It’s out of my hands. I mean, what else can I do?

We have already addressed Evan’s claim of having evidence.

When you read these aggressive sentences from Evan about how Michael Jackson “is gonna be humiliated beyond belief” and that “he will not believe what’s going to happen to him” always remember that this is all while Jordan himself is adamant that he has not been not molested and while Evan relies on “imaginations” rather than on factual evidence of any wrongdoing. It is important to emphasize that Evan’s desire to destroy and humiliate Jackson precedes the emergence of Jordan’s allegations and that Jordan first came up with those allegations while he was later in Evan’s care and paid visits to the office of Evan’s lawyer, Barry Rothman whom Evan himself described as a “son of a bitch”. You will read more details about how Jordan’s allegations emerged in the next chapter entitled How Did The Allegations of the Chandlers Emerge?

CHANDLER: What’s the disadvantage to you if Michael Jackson’s destroyed and out of the family? What good is he doing you?

SCHWARTZ: What harms it — well,  it has nothing to — I’m only thinking of Jordy.

CHANDLER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) come over to talk to you, you seemed pretty damned upset that everybody was telling you that Michael Jackson has taken your family away from you. You even went so far as to tell me you couldn’t get bank loans because of that [tape irregularity] turn around completely 180 degrees.

Evan here again tries to convince Schwartz to join him in destroying Michael Jackson by playing on his vanity as a husband.

SCHWARTZ: I would do anything for Jordy. I would lose everything. I would die for Jordy. That’s the bottom line.

CHANDLER: Then why don’t you just back me up right now and let’s get rid of Michael Jackson.

SCHWARTZ: Because I don’t know the facts.

CHANDLER: Okay. Well, when you know –

SCHWARTZ: I mean, I don’t –

CHANDLER: Okay. When you know the facts, when you see the facts come out, then you’ll make a decision at that point.

SCHWARTZ: Right. That’s fair.

CHANDLER: Okay.

SCHWARTZ: I mean, that’s more than fair, but this — let me –

CHANDLER: It’s unfortunately gonna be too late, then, and nothing’s gonna matter at that point.

SCHWARTZ: Why?

CHANDLER: Because the fact is so fucking overwhelming –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah?

CHANDLER: — that everybody’s going to be destroyed in the process. The facts themselves are gonna – once this thing starts rolling –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — the facts themselves are gonna overwhelm. It’s gonna be bigger than all of us put together, and the whole thing’s just gonna crash down on everybody and destroy everybody in its sight. That’s [tape irregularity] humiliating, believe me.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And is that good?

CHANDLER: Yeah. It’s great.

SCHWARTZ: Why?

CHANDLER: Great, because –

SCHWARTZ: I mean, is that how you’re –

CHANDLER: Because June and Jordy and Michael –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: – have forced me to take it to the extreme –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: – to get their attention. How pitiful, pitifuckingful they are to have done that. I’ve tried to get their attention –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — I have begged on the phone, and all I get back is, “Go fuck yourself” on the phone, and so now I’m still trying to get their attention until 8:30 tomorrow for their [tape irregularity], and I will know that even having gone this far they won’t talk to me, then I know that I’m absolutely right in doing what I’m doing because they have left me no other [tape irregularity]. I am not allowed to talk to [tape irregularity], and so since they’re sending me that message and telling me that –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — they leave me no choice. They will not let me say to them, “This is what’s bothering me, and this is what I’d like to do about it. What do you think?” They’re saying, “We don’t care what you have to think — say about [tape irregularity].”

SCHWARTZ: You mean by no communication?

CHANDLER: Am I supposed to just bury my head? No. Not when my kid’s involved.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: I can’t. So it’s their fault. Everything’s their fault, one hundred percent, and the reason it’s their fault [tape irregularity] try to communicate, and they have time after time frustrated my attempts to talk by telling me, “Go fuck yourself.” And when you do that to somebody, consistently, you drive them to do something [tape irregularity]. I’m not an evil person. I don’t want to do this.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: It’s their fault because they won’t talk. They have one more chance. I’ve told them this. That’s why I left that message. The message was very harsh [tape irregularity] and  it was very true, and it was to let them know that I am not kidding around.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: I’m begging them. That message was begging, one more time –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — to sit down and talk and saying basically, “I don’t want to hurt you, but you’re not leaving me any choice.”

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: And, you know, if they choose to ignore it, for whatever their motives — June doesn’t ignore things for the same — she doesn’t bury her head in the sand and make believe it’s gonna go away.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: June usually will call you up and say, “Go fuck yourself and drop dead” –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — and she’ll get violent and all that, maybe even punch you in the face.

SCHWARTZ: Well, that’s not so bad.

CHANDLER: That’s right, and yet she’s not calling me –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — she’s not doing anything. She’s not talking either. So Michael’s not talking either. The three of them, completely different personalities –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — handle situations in three completely different ways, and yet none of the three of them is calling me.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: You can tell me that Jordy’s burying his head in the sand and that’s his reaction [tape irregularity]. What’s the other two excuses? I don’t know. They won’t even tell me what their excuse for not talking to me is. I don’t even — I can’t make an excuse for –

SCHWARTZ: Michael, I can’t tell you. June, she doesn’t know what’s going on.

CHANDLER: Well, of course she doesn’t know what’s going on. She wouldn’t let me tell her.

SCHWARTZ: But she doesn’t going on — know what’s going on –

CHANDLER: I did tell her once.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: I did tell her once what my thoughts were about it.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: And she said, “Go fuck yourself,” basically.

Evan is desperate to “get rid of Michael Jackson” and this is before he made his son – under dubious circumstances – support his claim that the star had allegedly molested him. (Details about how Jordan’s allegations emerged in the next chapter How Did The Allegations of the Chandlers Emerge?)

Evan talks about overwhelming “facts” when in reality he did not have any evidence. His anger is not just directed towards Jackson but also towards June and Jordan as evident when he says: “Because June and Jordy and Michael have forced me to take it to the extreme to get their attention. How pitiful, pitifuckingful they are to have done that.”

He blames all three of them for not talking to him – and in fact, their refuseal to communicate with him seems to be his main problem. At one point Evan says: “I’m not an evil person. I don’t want to do this”. If what he does is in the best interest of his son and he is only trying to get him out of a situation that is harmful to him then why would he say that?

He also accuses June of physical violence, when in fact it is documented that Evan himself was the physically abusive one (see the chapter Michael Jackson’s first accuser – meet the Chandler family!).

According to All That Glitters the situation when Evan allegedly told June of his concerns about Jackson and Jordan happened on June 9, the day of the preschool graduation of “Cody” (an alias), Evan’s younger son. According to the book this is how it went:

“When June came by to pick up Kelly, Evan took June into the backyard where they could talk privately. “I’m worried about Jordie,” he began. “I’m afraid he might be gay.”

According to Evan, June shrugged her shoulders and replied, “So what. So he’s gay. Who cares?”

Evan couldn’t believe what he had just heard. In his mind, June was admitting their son might be gay and having sex with Michael, and that it was no big deal. He became instantly enraged and screamed at June, “Who cares! Who cares! Are you crazy!!” Barely in control of his temper, Evan ordered June to leave his house.

That June saw nothing wrong with Jordie being gay was not what angered Evan. “Though what straight parent would be pleased at the prospect,” he later explained. “It was the way she flipped it off, like there was nothing to be concerned about, or even talk about. Maybe I should have tried to talk to her more. But I just lost it. Anyway, looking back, I doubt it would have made any difference. She was already locked on course.” [1; page 55]

As we can see again, Evan is pretty liberal with details and with the interpretation of certain stories. June stating that she would not care if Jordan was gay is far from “admitting” that Jordan might have sex with Michael Jackson, yet “in Evan’s mind” that alleged statement by June meant that she “admitted” she would not care if their son was molested by Jackson.

The story in All That Glitters also contradicts Evan’s interpretation in this conversation where he repeatadly claims that June told him to “go fuck himself” when he voiced his concerns about Jordan and Jackson to her. However, according to their own book all he voiced concerns about was that Jordan might be gay and when June said she would not care, Evan “became instantly enraged and screamed at June” and then “barely in control of his temper, Evan ordered June to leave his house”. This kind of behavior by Evan – weird assumptions, suggestions and temper tantrums – would explain why June, Jackson and Jordan refused to communicate with him, rather than having something to hide as Evan imagines and interprets it in this conversation.

For the record, Jordan is not gay.

CHANDLER: I have nothing to gain by talking to them tomorrow. All that can happen tomorrow is that I’m gonna look at their faces and I’m gonna feel bad –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — and I’m gonna mitigate my position. I’m gonna give in somewhat [tape irregularity] I just went ahead and did what I was gonna do, I don’t ever have to see them again –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — they’re automatically gonna be destroyed and I’m gonna get what I want. That’s a given [tape irregularity], so –

SCHWARTZ: But, I mean, is that the way to get Jordy?

CHANDLER: — talk to them — I’m talking to them for their sake –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — mine. This is my fourth, fifth and last attempt to communicate.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: So when I leave a threatening message, I am threatening them –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — because nothing else works. Crying didn’t work. Begging didn’t work. Intelligence didn’t work.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Appealing to the motherly [tape irregularity] nothing worked. So what else is left? You threaten. If that doesn’t work, you’ve basically tried everything there is that you could possibly try.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: I didn’t threaten him physically. I didn’t say I was going to kill them. Michael can show up with all his bodyguards with guns and surround me if he wants to.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: I’m not killing anybody tomorrow. It’s not the next step. His death is not the next (inaudible), so I mean I will talk to them tomorrow, but that’s for their — they can’t possibly feel threatened.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: That’s bullshit. I didn’t threaten them physically in any way, and certainly Michael’s got enough [tape irregularity] lawyers (inaudible). He has Burt Fields (sic!), who’s a big hotshot, if he wants to, sit right there. I don’t give a shit.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Whatever, you know, is going to make them protected from my great threat. I’m showing up all by my little self, and they can show up with an entire army if they need to protect themselves from me, but there’s nothing that they can do to convince me that they’re not showing up because they’re afraid for their lives.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: They could show up [tape irregularity] surrounded by bodyguards. He could certainly have them come over to June’s house, so [tape irregularity] threat was obviously the last (inaudible). I’ve never punched anybody. I’ve never shot anybody. I’ve never done anything violent in my life. There’s no reason why they should feel physically threatened. Never ever given them any indication that I [tape irregularity] Jordy, so, you know, they know that that threat’s [tape irregularity] to be fearful of that. They know that that [tape irregularity] and they know that I left it because there’s no other way to get ahold of them.

Like detailed the chapter Michael Jackson’s first accuser – meet the Chandler family! it is not true that Evan was not violent. Also take note of Evan’s words when he says “I’m not killing anybody tomorrow. It’s not the next step. His death is not the next” – as if that should make him look less threatening.

Evan claims that he tried everything reasonable to communicate his alleged concerns to June and Jackson and that he is acting only out of desperation because no intelligent way of trying to talk to them worked. However, in All That Glitters, there is simply no intelligent attempt at talking to them presented. According to the book, only one day after Evan was personally introduced to Jackson, he asked, out of the blue: “Are you fucking my son up the ass?” (sic!) [1; page 30]. According to the same book, some time later he asked his son just as bluntly:

“Hey, Jordie, are you and Michael doin’ it?”

“That’s disgusting!” Jordie reacted. “I’m not into that.”

“Just kidding.” [1; page 46]

We have previously addressed the way Evan, according to the book, communicated his concerns to June.

From the book it is also obvious that Evan did not accept a “no” for an answer and he pressured Jordan as long as he did not say what Evan wanted to hear. About the details of this you can read more in the next chapter entitled How Did The Allegations of the Chandlers Emerge?

CHANDLER: There are other people involved that are waiting for my phone call that are intentionally going to be in certain positions –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — [tape irregularity]. I paid them to do it. They’re doing their job. I gotta just go ahead and follow through on the time zone.

SCHWARTZ: Um-hmm.

CHANDLER: I mean the time set out. Everything is going according to a certain plan that isn’t just mine. There’s other people involved –

Evan talks about a plan that is not just his but there are also other people involved who are in certain positions and whom he paid. Again, keep in mind that this is while Jordan is adamant that no inappropriety has happened. Evan however already goes by “a certain plan that isn’t just mine”.

CHANDLER: But if they are there, it’s going to be far better than if they’re not — I mean, they’re going to have a chance to make things a lot better if they’re there. My instructions were to kill and destroy [tape irregularity], I’m telling you. I mean, and by killing and destroying, I’m going to torture them, Dave.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Because that’s what June has done to me. She has tortured me

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — and she’s gonna know that you can’t [tape irregularity]. I’ll tell you one thing that Jordy has no idea about, and that’s what love means. He doesn’t even have the remotest idea. He can’t learn it from June. She doesn’t know what it means. She has no conception of what it means.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: So maybe, you know, I can get (inaudible) teach him that. I don’t know.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah [tape irregularity].

CHANDLER: Part of it [tape irregularity] other people and communicating, and those are three things that must be in place in order for a loving relationship to exist, because all of those things show that you care about that other person. Not one thing [tape irregularity].

This is more about Evan’s hurt ego than anything else. He wants to “kill and destroy” and “torture them” because of what June – in Evan’s mind at least – has done to him.

The claim about Evan wanting to teach Jordan about love is ironic considering the fact how Evan treated his other two children after these allegations. Details in the chapter Michael Jackson’s first accuser – meet the Chandler family!

CHANDLER: — look at her behavior, I’m just saying that June is a brilliant and pathologic personality.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: What you see on the surface ain’t even remotely related to what’s really going on underneath.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: And I believe that that will come out in lie detector [tape irregularity] psychological evaluations –

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: — which they’re all gonna have to do.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: So –

SCHWARTZ: And you think that’s good for Jordy?

CHANDLER: I think that in the long run would — of course it’s not the best thing for Jordy.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: The best thing for Jordy would be for everybody to sit there and peaceably resolve amongst themselves [tape irregularity], but because they’re not willing to do that, I’m not allowed to have a say in what the best [tape irregularity]. I’m not even allowed to [tape irregularity] Jordy is. I’m not allowed to have a say in anything about Jordy. So when you ask me that question [tape irregularity] I would welcome them to do that, but they don’t care. They don’t care about what I think, so they don’t ask me that question. Do I think — I mean, just to answer your question, I think that [tape irregularity] for Jordy either way in the short [tape irregularity], in the short term.

There is an irony in Evan calling June a “pathologic personality” considering his own behaviour.

CHANDLER: I think in the long term he’s got a [tape irregularity] a chance of being a happy human being if I do what I have to do than if I let things go the way they are. Could a compromise be worked out? Possibly.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: Yeah. Let them convince me as to why [tape irregularity] tell me I’m wrong. Let them show me how Jordy’s benefitting and not being harmed. They got their chance.

 […]

CHANDLER: They’ve had four or five times that I’ve called them [tape irregularity] haven’t wanted to get in a conversation with me about it, and I believe they don’t want to get in a conversation with me about it is because they know they can’t defend their position.

SCHWARTZ: Yeah.

CHANDLER: [tape irregularity] to cut – I mean, I’m young, I’m really liberal. As far as I’m concerned, anybody could do anything they want. That’s my philosophy. You guys can do whatever you want. Just be happy. Don’t get hurt. So…

[end tape]

Why would a parent who allegedly suspects child molestation, moreover claims to have “evidence” of it and represents himself as a “concerned father” want to work out a “compromise”? Considering Evan’s alleged beliefs about the relationship between Jordan and Jackson and that elsewhere he claims to be a “concerned father” the last sentences of the conversation are also remarkable.

Summary

This conversation needs to be viewed in the context of Evan Chandler’s other actions and also in the context of his personality. While discussing the conversation above we cited many of the facts, events and actions which put Evan’s claims and posturing as a concerned and desperate father into a perspective. Additionally please also consider the fact that during these allegations Evan’s focus was always on the money – every step, every action he made was aimed at that. The details of this will be discussed later in this document in the following chapters: The Chandlers’ Monetary Demands, The Settlement and Evan Chandler’s 1996 lawsuit against Michael Jackson.

Also consider the sequence of events as these allegations against Jackson emerged: Evan gets jealous of the friendship between his son and Jackson and he develops the fixed idea that the relationship between them is sexual, although he has no evidence of it and his son himself states to him that nothing inappropriate has happened. Probably it is no coincidence that this “suspicion” of Evan emerges at the same time when Jackson refuses to comply with his demands such as building an addition to his house or making him a partner in a film production company Jackson has just founded (see later in chapter The Chandlers’ Monetary Demands). Evan then pressures Jordan to confess the “suspected” sexual abuse and when Evan gets control over the boy Jordan allegedly (and conveniently for Evan) “confesses” to him about alleged sexual abuse under highly questionable circumstances. We will discuss those circumstances in detail in the next chapter.

Between Jordan’s alleged “confession” to Evan and their reporting of the allegations to authorities (through a therapist) there is a full month during which Jordan stays with his father who refuses to return him to his mother June.  During that time Jordan pays visits to the office of Evan’s “son of a bitch” lawyer Barry Rothman (whom Evan hired long before Jordan’s alleged “confession” of abuse) and there is plenty of time for Evan and Rothman to coach the boy. Meanwhile Evan, the allegedly “concerned father”, demands money from Jackson in exchange for not going public and to authorities with allegations of sexual molestation of his son. (Details in the later chapter The Chandlers’ Monetary Demands.)

It is after Jackson’s refusal to pay him off when Evan takes his son to a therapist where Jordan makes his detailed allegations for the first time which then triggers the investigation and the public scandal. But even after that Evan’s focus remains on how to make money with these allegations. Only two weeks after going public with the allegations Evan hires a civil lawyer, Larry Feldman who files a civil lawsuit against Jackson, admittedly with a “highly profitable settlement” in mind [1; page 168]. In a tactical court game then the Chandlers fight for the civil lawsuit being brought ahead of the criminal proceedings (which compromises Jackson’s right to a fair trial as discussed in the chapter about The Settlement) and express no interest in putting the alleged molester of Jordan behind bars. Their priority is always money.

All these events are detailed in this document, either in previous or following chapters and it is highly recommended to read them to get a full perspective of the events as they unfolded.

Sources:

[1] Raymond Chandler – All That Glitters: The Crime and the Cover-Up (Windsong Press Ltd, September 2004)

[2] Mary A. Fischer: Was Michael Jackson Framed? (GQ, October 1994)
http://www.buttonmonkey.com/misc/maryfischer.html

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